| Author | Message | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
Hi, I'm new in town. Mostly this first post is to be polite and introduce myself. We are a family of four living in SLC. Mom, Dad, Toddler, Baby. Dad travels quite a bit, mostly to DC and NYC, but other places occasionally. Our first bus was a Chevy/Wayne G30 4x4 shuttle bus. The second was an International 3700 36 passenger schoolie. For the third we went big time and acquired a 1975 TMC MC-8 with a smoky 8V-71N and a very (very) rough minimal conversion inside. Sheets over the windows, wafer partitions, no tanks, etc. Recently we picked up a 1987 Gillig Phantom, ostensibly for the engine. It has a Cummins L-10 and ZF-590 (I think) 6-speed automatic. I drove it the short way home with only minor smoke in the cabin and all four(!) of the tires different sizes, but found myself starting to like this old Phantom. The 40x102 dimensions are nice, big tinted windows, nonstructural walls, tall ceiling, and more. With some tires and cleanup we could be on the road with this one. Much easier than doing an engine swap on the (12 years) older MCI. Underneath I found the desirable (joking) suspension with only two airbags on each end. I'd say it rides like a tank compared with the MCI. The bags look like they are about at end of life. I'm not really in love with the front cap. Ok, so only (!) airbags, rebuild brakes, fluids, cleanup, paint, new tires, and we're out of here for some mobile tin-tent camping. It'll never be the MCI, but it runs great now and it is 102" wide. Tough one. The real choice may be whether to use the newer Gillig or try (but never quite get around to) the MCI. A conundrum to be sure. -- I know this is our decision to make (and I'm pretty sure the MCI is going to have to find a new home) but I'm interested in hearing some opinions. I'm guessing I could sell the MCI for enough to cover tires and some nice Alcoa wheels. We are not looking to build our "Ultimate Bus," just something to play with for five to ten years. Our goal for this year is to get something safe, dry, comfortable (temperature), and not smelling like bus. Anyway, this thread is for opinions; I'll start another for the build. Dave | ||
| Dan West (Utahclaimjumper)
Registered Member Username: Utahclaimjumper Post Number: 183 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 208.66.38.60 Rating: N/A |
Dave, hello from Cedar City, looks like you need to establish a use for this bus and build from there.>>>Dan | ||
| David Lower (Dave_l)
Registered Member Username: Dave_l Post Number: 153 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.58.201.132  Rating: N/A |
Dave welcome to the jungle the choise is obvious man! If it don't say MCI it's not a bus!! And an MC8 is great but a seven is sexy!! ;-) Dave L ( you should also check out the BNO Facebook and sign up there too it is a very good site!) (Message edited by Dave_L on May 31, 2009) | ||
| Frank Allen (Frank66)
Registered Member Username: Frank66 Post Number: 109 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 205.188.116.203 Rating: N/A |
yea like saying if it dont say chevy its not a car, i feel this way about the gmc units, was going to buy a mci but they drive like a tank compaired to a good 06 | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 489 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.197.237  Rating: N/A |
Dave WELCOME to the wonderful world of BUSNUTS and hope to hear more about your projects. I have a 4104, 4905 and Mci-8 and want to tell you they are fun and challenging to be around,but if I need any questions or problems solved, the place to be is HERE!!! gomer | ||
| John and Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 200 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 96.42.7.186  Rating: N/A |
Welcome and good luck to you and your family Dave, there are other "bus boards" out there, but none with as helpful and easygoing bunch of guys and gals as this one. I think I watch this closer than my e-mail. Welcome aboard. | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the welcome. I've lurked for years and have checked out quite a few of the boards, so I know the temperature, so to speak. I know everyone has a favorite brand/model. I'm just trying to balance the two specifics _I_already_have_. I'd like to have a twin-screw model, but I don't think I'm going to buy any more until I use one of these for a few years. Mostly we want to go places like Yellowstone, Duck Creek (eh, Dan), and similar. However, and it is a big however, I could probably do a cross country every year for less than I pay for airfare back and forth. I would like a chance to drive an 06, so if anyone is near... Last year I saw a light blue scenicruiser on I-80 near SLC airport. It had an arrow on the side pointing forward. Love at first sight. Anyway, opinions on the two options I have will be helpful. I'm hoping to check out the brakes and airbags on the Phantom early this week. If I decide to take the engine out of it, I'll probably make it a workshop on the family ranch (100 miles away from home). If I decide to use the Phantom as is, I'll sell the MC-8. Dan, do you know the fellow down there with the articulated bus? I'm sort of hoping it is yours. I make a point to drive by that place every time I'm in the area just to see the interesting yard decor. I'm betting you know exactly where I mean. Thanks Dave | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1618 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.71.102.23  Rating: N/A |
Welcome to the madness! Only you can decide what it is you like to drive, and the space you want to have, and the condition of your two coaches. After an inspection of the Phantom to ensure it is in an acceptable condition to go down the road, try it out! The MCI may wait patiently while you see if the Phantom suits you. My coach lives 110 miles from my work-week residence... a challenge, since it is impossible to putter on projects in the evenings, but not a show stopper, if the coach, and its use, is important to the family. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Dan West (Utahclaimjumper)
Registered Member Username: Utahclaimjumper Post Number: 184 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 208.66.38.60 Rating: N/A |
I've seen the artticulate many times as it just sits there in the front yard across the street from Wendys, dose'nt seem to be any movement or improvement. I also own an 06 (11 years).>>>Dan 4106 -1261 | ||
| Dan West (Utahclaimjumper)
Registered Member Username: Utahclaimjumper Post Number: 185 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 208.66.38.60 Rating: N/A |
We were in Duck Creek over Memorial weekend on our trip back from Rubys Inn for a couple days, that section of 14 takes you to 9010 ft. and without a turbo it is a challenge pulling a 4400 lb. towed. But from there to Cedar its down all the way so the Jake is a must.>>>Dan | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
Dan The ZF trans has a retarder on it so hopefully a Jake won't be needed as neither engine has one. I'm sure I'll use the Cummins L-10 in whichever one we ultimately use. Any guesses on cost of a Jake for the L-10? I'll sure miss the sound of the DD. I've been thinking of ways I could put the old engine to use, but since it is smoky, probably not much use. I should have mentioned it leaks a little oil;). One of the things in favor of the MCI is safety. At least I perceive it to be stronger in the rollover department and presumably engineered for higher speed. Any thoughts on safety on a 60-65mph ride? I'm guessing about $150 each to replace the airbags myself but I don't know if I'm even close. A local tire place quoted something like $731 each for Michelin tires. I guess they thought they had a sucker on the line. Like everyone else, money is a bit tight right now. I'm hoping for about a $20K project when I'm done, but pushing the costs to next year will likely be necessary. I'm not looking for anyone to advise me which unit to use. More a compare and contrast exercise. Thanks Dave | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
PS One of these times I'll stop in and try to chat with the owner of that 60 foot beast. I'm vaguely remembering an antique coach there about 10-20 years ago but I might be making that up. | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 344 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62  Rating: N/A |
Dave, Every Detroit leaks oil...think of it as marking it's territory  Does it use a lot of oil? | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
PO drove it from Michigan to Utah. I can't remember if he said a gallon of oil every 300 or every 600 miles. I've put a couple of hundred miles on it and I'd say it looks similar to the mosquito fogging truck. It will leave an oil puddle about 12-18" in diameter overnight. I haven't looked to see where it is leaking as I am pretty sure it is worn beyond hope. It still makes pretty good power though. I have wondered if perhaps it has thin oil in it and that would burn more, but I doubt it would account for that much. I love that DD sound. When I was a kid, my dad's office was near the fire station. The engines would slow for the traffic light and then pour on the coal. I never got tired of listening to them go through the full throttle auto shift. I swore one day I'd get one of those engines with the AT (and the air horn like on one particular engine). Unfortunately I think this particular engine is worn out. Anyway, I got the Phantom with the L-10 for a ridiculously low price so I'm sure I'm going to use that engine either way. It runs like a champ and the hub meter is at something like 42K miles. In a perfect world I'd have an 8V-92TTA, but not in this economy. If you aren't familiar with the Blastolene Brothers, you should check them out on the net. -- I got most of the seat pads on the garbage truck today. They don't recycle foam or vinyl here. It took three complete "black beauty" cans- the ones that are chest high. I have been out taking the backs off the metal seat frames so I can get rid of the last 20 pads plus the plastic backs. I'm planning to add the rest to my "project steel" pile. Once I get the Phantom seats off the driveway I'll head back inside with a hose to clean the pile of raccoon **** out of the back corner. Is the Phantom floor completely wood or is there metal between two sheets of ply? Maybe I'll drill a hole to find out. | ||
| David Lower (Dave_l)
Registered Member Username: Dave_l Post Number: 154 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.58.201.132 Rating: N/A |
Dave I a was just ribing you a little about picking the MC8 that choise is one you will have to make your self, But working for MCI in the past could make me a little biased. Is doing an overhaul of the 8V71 to costly, are you doing the work your self? Could the smoke be from dirty injecters? I know mine were dirty and the engine runs good but smokes until warm'd up and it had oil leaking from between the head and block due to some rubber "O" rings that were worn out. Just some things to think about. Dave L | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
I can take some ribbing. I like the MCI better in every way except the 96" width, low ceiling, and the engine. We're a pretty tall bunch so a roof raise will be mandatory. I think that may be easier on the Phantom, but I suppose not by much. I welded for a couple of years during college so I'm confident I can pull it off. I've brainstormed various methods of adding more insulation on the MCI OUTSIDE of the outer skin. Sort of a "coat" with another thin aluminum skin on it. I think it could be done but I don't know if it is worth the trouble. I think I'd just start behind the driver similar to how MCI widened some of their models. Here in SLC it gets over 100 degrees F for about a month in the summer. It is mildly cold at around 15 F in the winter, but I spend quite a bit of time north of here near where the unofficial record low temp in the Continental US was recorded. I think around -75 F. It is possible the engine could be fixed without a major overhaul. I'll get some pics up soon so others who know more can look and give an opinion. I would describe the smoke as "even gray," and lots of it. No black and no white. I'm sure I can handle gaskets, etc. I think I found an inframe kit for $1400 last year, but I can't seem to find it now. I'll have to find where our mom hid all the manuals on the MCI. I'm thinking the cylinder liners slide right out of the block, right? I'm doing the work myself where I can. I don't have anything that will lift the engine cradle so I'll have to rent a forklift or wrecker to do the swapping. I have overhauled some engines and done general maintenance work but I'm new to heavy trucks and diesel mechanics. I've driven diesel pickups for a few years. -- I remain hopeful someone will chime in with some factual comparison of these two coaches on crashworthiness. Just the facts, ma'am. I know nobody wants the responsibility of telling someone else what to do. I'm not asking for that, just the facts. Its all good. Dave | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 237 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 4.248.58.127  Rating: |
Welcome Dave... And - no offense - but I'm suddenly absolutely convinced that every single one of us is absolutely stark raving mad. That said, stick with the MCI (even though I'm chucking rocks at mine right now). I don't have any real 'deep' reasons (though it would serve you well in case of a nuclear attack). It's kinda like why I'm partial to Peterbilts (besides LOVING the name) - it's that little pink oval badge on the bonnet! A big brute with a feminine side... that's an MCI too. Hey... try to match up those tires! Nellie Wilson | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1565 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 98.192.173.82  Rating: N/A |
Dave - To help sort out your situation, you might try a variation on that old sales technique called "The Ben Franklin Close": http://www.startupnation.com/forums/5742/1/1 And if that leaves you in total disarray, then sell both and buy yourself an MCI 102C3 or a Prevost XL. FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
Yes, all nuts. It turns out coaches are not the strangest things I've had. Perhaps we'll get into that OT story someday. As far as Ben Franklin and his close: Couched in those terms, I was asking for specific points to place an each side of the line. (Or is it a T-account?). "sell both and buy yourself an MCI 102C3" Probably the best suggestion of all. I'm probably not going to be able to invest more than $2-5K this year, so I'll keep looking for cool/warm and dry. They are both dry so about sixes there. I'll be back to post some more thoughts later. | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
I've started compiling a list of pluses and minuses of each coach. I'll come back and make changes as needed. ------------------------------------ MCI MC-8 Positives Flat floor - no wheelwells Tag axle (more tires for stability and braking) Easy to raise roof Love all that stainless Detroit Diesel 8V-71N 285 hp Allison HT740 4-speed AT T-drive Gear ratio 3.73:1 Designed for highway speeds Basement (3 * 100ft^2) Auxiliary fuel tank 179Gal total Existing tires are ok for now MCI Negatives Only 96" wide (but maneuverable) DD3 brakes Bud wheels -(hub pilot is "the new standard for safety") Overall height 10' 10" -with lower ceiling Smaller entry door 24"? (a huge pain) GWR slightly less (~37k?) Engine is worn out Tag axle won't stay down AC system has been destroyed Steering- I see many have swapped it out Difficult to add slideout Major air leak (should be easy to find) - I hear a leak near the curb side radiator - Compressor stays off for about 2 minutes while driving. Or maybe it was 10, it's been a while. ------------------------------------------------ Gillig Phantom Positives Full 102" width (97" interior width as built) Ceiling height is 78" on centerline Front stairwell 42" wide, rear 33-1/2" wide Newer style hub-pilot wheels Easy to install slideout (future) - 14' curb side, 18' street side Easy to raise roof Large front door and rear door Has working factory AC (swamp cooler style) Lower height overall Bigger factory windows 57"w x 40"h Newer brake design (cheaper maintenance?) Higher GWR 39,400 Human access under coach with suspension deflated Huge water tank for swamp cooler - probably 200 gal Gillig Negatives Huge wheelwells in cabin -24" x 48" front, 31-5/8" x 48 rear Due to wells and rear bench, the only rear layout that makes sense is a twin bed on each side. - might be able to squeeze a head between the entry door and rear well. Floor area is 27"w but well is on an angle front to rear. ~45* Rough ride (like a tank, remember) No basement (there is room for 18Hx32D basement 10'++ on each side) Rear airbags shot (visual inspection) Left front airbag has a hard time airing up Air leak at park brake valve Needs new tires now Gear ratio 4.30:1 (too low/slow) Designed for city/suburban speeds Some bulging on exterior panels at floor line. - Appears to be hidden corrosion. Floor appears to be plywood one sheet thick Appears to be some rust damage on one of the rear air cans Slight cancer bubbles at roofline Smaller fuel tank (~129gal?) (Message edited by Virtual on June 04, 2009) | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 855 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Dave, You left "basement" out of the MCI positives... As far as I'm concerned, that's a big one. The Phantom is an angle drive? If so, then you left T drive out of the MCI plusses, as in RH drive, and the ability to add 4 speed autos, 10 speeds, etc. Welcome, George | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
Yes, I did forget the basement. As I was typing I added it into the negatives on the Phantom but forgot to go back up to the MCI section. I guess basement is about 300 votes for the MCI. The MC-8 and the Phantom are both T-drive. The original intent for the Phantom was to become an engine/transmission donor and a warm dry workshop on the family ranch. The PO of the Phantom bought two of them and swapped one of the Cummins/ZF into an MC-7. Get this--he didn't buy any parts at all. Didn't even need to shorten the driveshaft. I've seen pics of it and it looks pretty good. I think he must have extended the rear body because it had one radiator on the street side. He said the only hard part was tracing all the wires to the transmission computer. Apparently he cut the whole bundle early on and they weren't clearly color coded. I'll try to get a few more specifics from him soon. Today I took some "close enough" measurements of the Phantom. I'll post them later when I get them cleaned up a bit (as I haven't found any measurements in my searches). It appears the MC-8 has more usable floorspace than the Phantom. The six inches less width is a big deal but I guess we could call that a "feature." I'd appreciate any dimensions on the MC-8 as mine is 100 miles away. Thanks for your input. I appreciate the posts above as well. I hope I didn't seem ungrateful earlier. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1114 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.3.157.139  Rating: N/A |
While that 6" can make a big difference in interior design, it can also be a big difference on some highways and contruction areas. Not that I have ever seen it enfoced, but I am pretty sure that 102 wide is illegal on some highways (non-interstate). Jack | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
Jack What is the approximate floor width and length on your coach? I think the width is probably about 91" and length to rear of step well is probably about 33-34'. Am I close? | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1116 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.3.157.139 Rating: N/A |
If I recall correctly, our stripped coach (MC-8) was 92" wide at the floor and 33'6" from the step up beside the drivers seat to the step up "shelf" over the engine compartment. The engine compartment "shelf" front to rear was 19"(our bed sets on top of this shelf). Interior wise, the 2 places I notice the biggest differences are the bedroom and the dinette. In the bedroom, with a queen size bed, that extra 3" per side makes it much easier to walk along side the bed with out "side stepping". A dinette can be 42" instead of 36" wide. If seating 4 people that extra 6" makes a big difference. Jack | ||
| Skip N (Skip)
Registered Member Username: Skip Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 161.7.80.9  Rating: N/A |
FWIW...... I have an L10 w/ a zf in my MCI 8. Not a power monster but I am happy with the set up. Plenty of room if the L10 doesn't have a jake brake. If you need some pictures let me know. Skip | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 24 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
I'm happy to look at all the pics you have. Do you have them online somewhere or would you need to email them? Your MC-8 looks very similar to the MC-7 I mentioned earlier. Maybe I was confused on the model. Did yours come from Utah? My L10 does not have a jake but the ZF has a retarder. What is your MPG? I've heard it is surprisingly good with that combo. | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 25 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
Jack With rough measurements it looks like the Phantom is only about 10 ft^2 larger than the MC-8. If we ignore the giant wheel wells. But how do you ignore them? "6" can make a big difference" I've heard that somewhere before. Actually we aren't planning to have a dinette as such. Perhaps a table of some sort to fit down the centerline but frankly we don't eat at a table at home so I doubt we'd start doing it while traveling. -- We'd really prefer to keep the fresh water inside. On the phantom, the only thing that makes sense is one tank on each side behind the wheel well-- from the well to the rear bench and from the side wall to the centermost edge of the well. So that's about 36"w x 32"d x ~14-16"h. That's around 70 gallons on each side and also 1100 lbs aft of the axle. If we put a single bed down each side with the rearward end sitting on the bench, place a partition bulkhead just forward of the beds (let's say ~90" forward of the rear wall), squeeze a head between the curbside well and the rear door, then run a shower, wash area, kitchen down the street side... We're left with a room that is about 14' long on the curb side and a little less on the street side, maybe 11' if we can fit all that into 8'. Forward of that, two giant wheelwells, driver area, etc. We need seating for 6 + driver and a bed for the parents up there. Interesting. | ||
| Dave (Virtual)
Registered Member Username: Virtual Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 67.186.253.131 Rating: N/A |
I spent some time on the Phantom this weekend. I read the parts manual and looked some things over pretty closely. Found an air leak in the wipers. Found the source of "minor smoke" - it was the motor on the rear under-seat heater. Found the major air leak at the rear leveling valve. Apparently it is a Midland N15845 valve that is only available from Gillig. I'm thinking of pulling it and putting a Schrader (tire) valve for the time being. It leaks enough the system doesn't really build air. The leak is around the pivot and out three holes on the bottom. Identified the problem with the rear brake can. This seems to be a "standard spring can." There is a U-shaped hose that is probably a diaphragm bypass I would guess. Well, there should be one but it is broken off. I'd imagine it would be replaced as part of a rebuild. I can get to the brakes and leveling valve through the floor access plate. What a joy- one of the things I hate most is road grime falling into my eyes. Experienced a new problem, the engine will not shut off from the front. I'm hoping it is because of not enough air pressure. Any guidance on the above would be appreciated. -- All the seat cushions fit into the trash this time. Five big cans of cushions total from the bus. Cut up all the seat frames so they are now flat and the stack is much smaller. I think I've made my choice of which coach to use. Now I'm ruminating and taking some time to be sure. Edited for speling. (Message edited by Virtual on June 08, 2009) |
