| Author |
Message |
Mike Jackson (Mike4104tx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 7:24 pm: | |
Okay, before I start this I want to let my GM bus comrades know that I am not 'seriously' considering buying a Eagle with a rusted frame.
There are a couple of things that I am not clear on the Eagle Frame repairs. The Eagle I am refering is professionally converted. The frame is broke behind the front drivers side tire. I was told that this could indicate that other parts of the frame is also rusted and is putting more pressure on that particular section of the frame. Ok, here are my questions:
1) In order to repair the frame the skin has to be pulled off the sides. Once that is done, and you replace the rusted sections of the frame, how do you re-attach the internal walls to the frame once the bad sections are replaced?
Once it has rust this bad, is it best to replace most of the frame? Or os ot safe to repair it only in the spots that have shown to have rust problems?
Can yall recommend a shop close to Houston Texas to give an estimate on the repairs?
Mike |
Don/TX
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 7:37 pm: | |
As most all know, I am usually the first to poke fun at Eagles. I won't do that to you. The entire frame can be repaired actually on an Eagle without too much difficulty, but time and money wise, there are lots of good rust free Eagles out there it seems. You did not say what model Eagle it is though, that might help. |
Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 7:41 pm: | |
Mike, you are going to get a bunch of replies that suggest you look for a much better coach. Without question, you need to buy a CD on this very subject from Gary at:
http://www.busconverter101.com
Once you get the CD, you will see EXACTLY what is involved. I would guess Gary has several hundred hours in his coach for the frame repair, and he is not done yet. A person might consider the project if they had the skills to do the work themselves. However, to pay a shop to do the tube replacement work could easily run $10-20K.
Depending on the conversion and the price, it is most likely not a good purchase. For sure, you would want someone to look at the conversion to see if it is worth all of the frame hassle.
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10
|
Pat Bartlett (Muddog16)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 8:21 pm: | |
Hi Mike, Eagle and Prevost chassis from what I understand were designed by the same company. If you want to take a quick look at just what you are talking about check the link below. I'm in the process now of replacing rust damage on my 82 Prevost LeMirage, this might give you the answer you are looking for.
http://prevostlemirage.blogspot.com/ |
John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 11:20 pm: | |
Mike, I did the tubing and welding for Mike S. in Las Vegas on his '72 Eagle and put about 200 ft. of square tubing and almost 50 lbs of .035 mig wire into it. IIRC, around 400 hours labor. Plus we put all new "paint-lok" skin on it and a Cummins 441 HP engine. My advice? Even if they give it to you, you still can't afford to repair it! Find a clean one. Cheers...JJ |
Mike Jackson (Mike4104tx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 11:30 pm: | |
I believe it is a 1982 Eagle Model 10. I have some pictures of it online.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/510158844/510166319GrKrgt
Ok, if the bus would retail for $75k or better if the frame was fixed, then would it be a good investment if a person purchased the bus for $25k and put $20k into repairing the frame? It seems like a person would have $45k in it, but the bus would be worth $30k more than that.
Some folks have told me that it would be a bad investment, but I don't understand why?
Thanks for your responses,
Mike |
Mike Jackson (Mike4104tx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 11:49 pm: | |
Just for the record: We have our hearts set on a very nice 4106. We are waiting until it is available to take a closer look. Until then we are carefully considering the other three buses on our potential buy list.
We are about to make our final decision and we wanted to review why we didn't want to get the Eagle. The conversion on this Eagle is very nice. I have had some Eagle busnut's tell me stay away from this Eagle, because of the rust issue. I don't know very much about the Eagles. I will say one thing, not ONE person has told me it was a good deal and just about EVERYONE has told me to stay way from it. That many people can't be wrong.
Thanks again for your reponses,
Mike |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 12:21 am: | |
Mike -
"Ok, if the bus would retail for $75k or better if the frame was fixed"
There's no-way that bus would bring 75k. Commercially built
motorhomes are getting difficult to sell, who wants a home made RV?
The thing is 23 years old! Good grief. If it'd bring 30k, I'd be
surprised.
"The frame is broke behind the front drivers side tire. "
Do you really want to buy a bus you can't drive home?
Just how bad is the rest of the bus? If an experienced bus
mechanic can tell you it'd go another 50k miles before you
have to worry about anything else - after the rust is fixed -
then 25k would be a decent price for an already converted
bus...... provided it's converted in the manner you can live
with..... and that section of damage can be repaired. AND,
if it'd only be a few grand to fix that area that's keeping it
from being road worthy.
If your mechanic nix's the bus... run away from it and don't
look back. All that glitters, is not gold, and in the bright and
warm sunlight, even urine will glitter. |
Mike Jackson (Mike4104tx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 7:27 am: | |
John,
"The thing is 23 years old! Good grief. If it'd bring 30k, I'd be surprised."
I hear what you are saying. I made my assumption about the value based on comparable Eagle model 10 conversions on the following web sites:
http://www.busforsale.com/silvercar/new_page_1.htm
http://www.busforsale.com/zack/index.htm
http://www.busforsale.com/betsy/index.htm
http://www.busnut.com/4sale/over.html
http://busconversions.com/classifieds.htm
The Eagle I am talking about was professionally converted by a bus leasing company. When it was originally converted, it was designed for a particular C&W singer (who's name escapes me). There was several big name singers that leased it. It is currently owned by the Northams. They have a 45' Eagle they travel in right now, so they don't need this bus. It appears to be a quality conversion to me. It was built to be leased by entertainers, so I assume it was considered high quality by thier standards as well. I posted a link to the pictures in a above message.
"If your mechanic nix's the bus... run away from it and don't look back. All that glitters, is not gold, and in the bright and warm sunlight, even urine will glitter."
I agree with what you are saying. The busnut community has me convinced it would be a bad idea to get the Eagle.
Chances are that if we buy the 4106 then it will still be on the road in 50 years and we will never have to worry about the rust.
Thanks for your reply,
Mike |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 8:41 am: | |
Mike -
I'd never buy a used car from Hertz (or any car rental place),
why would buying an RV from a RV rental place be better?
Any group leasing a unit, has probably kicked hell out of it.
Those weren't professional drivers driving it....
But that aside.... If the rest of the Eagle checked out OK, and
the only rust was that one section (yeah, miracles happen), and
you can buy it for 25k or less, it might be worth it... If, that is,
you can get it fixed for a few grand and it's interior is designed
exactly the way you wanted.. Even at your 45k limit, if it was ready
to roll at 45k with nothing more to worry about (that's a joke),
it'd be a half-way decent deal. An Eagle with it's torsion bar
suspension, is an absolute dream to drive. There is no comparison
of the handling and ride, between an "air bag" bus, and an Eagle.
The '06 is lighter and smaller than the Eagle, at 35' and one less
axle to worry about. But, you'd also have one less axle of
support, and braking power... You'd have less baggage space
with the '06 and less room inside. The rounded interior of the
'04 and '06 conversions we looked at, gave us a feeling of
claustrophobia, so we decided to go with the newer, box
shaped bus design, for our conversion.
Out of curiosity, Mike... Why did you rule out the popular MCI?
(incidentally, we went through the same ordeal of picking and
choosing, when we started down this road to ruin) |
Mike Jackson (Mike4104tx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 8:53 pm: | |
John,
I wouldn’t buy a car from Hertz either. I really had not thought of it from that perspective, but your right it is basically the same thing.
I have thought about getting a MCI. I haven’t even been in one of the 40 footers. My brother had a MC5A and it was nice bus. A nice design and it had the 8v71. I almost decided to buy it from my brother, but I already had the 4104. One thing I liked about the MC5 (other than how good it’s built) is that it was built by a retired busnut. He had really put his heart into building the bus. He only got to take a couple of trips in it before he died. I like the 4106 look, design, and ride, but that is not the main reason I am seriously looking that this particular 4106. The man that built it put his heart into it, he took very good care of it, he and his family drove all over America in it. He is older now and won’t be traveling like he used to. A bus with that kind of history means a lot to me. My brother had told me about this 4106 and its owner and I wanted to buy it way before I saw the first picture of the bus. The Eagle just seemed like a good deal, but the more I reflect on it after reading all the comments about it, I won’t be buying the Eagle. It is a beautiful bus… but it’s not for me.
If for some reason I do not buy the 4106, then more than likely I will buy a 102A3 from MAK (or one of the other respected sellers or possibly a busnut) and convert it myself. If I do that, then it won’t be until the mid-point of next year before I get one.
Have you seen the 4104 with the 6v92 in it on gmbusguy.com? I bet that bus will flatten the hills. I didn’t know that could be done?
Mike |
Connel Smalling (Connel)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 10:34 pm: | |
Mike,
Looking at the pic more closely, it appears to show bulges above the drive and bogie wheel wells. This could be a sign of the main frame rail giving way. The frame rail runs the length of the bus at the top of the alum siding. The weight of the engine will cause the back area to sag and the frame rail will buckle causing rivets to pop along these two areas. Look down the sides of the bus and if you see bulges the frame rail needs repair. It can be repaired but is labor intensive. Do you have a pic of the drivers side. "Broken frame" could be many thing. Did you find the frame broken (what part and were) or did someone tell you it was.
I am doing a complete rebuild of a '73 05 and am almost complete. Jim Shepherd has seen my coach and can attest to the massive rebuild underway. It is not for the faint of heart or for someone without good welding ability. From the pic I would not give more that 15K tops IF the purchaser has good welding skills. Without those skills it would be cost prohibitive to pay for the corrective work required.
BTDT
Connel |
Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 11:06 pm: | |
Mike, as I predicted in my earlier reply, you got a lot of folks telling you don't do it. I looked at the conversion and it appears to be well done. The side view of the bus does not show any significant signs of bowing from rust damage.
I know that you seemed to have discarded the idea of the Eagle in favor of the 4106. While that is probably a good decision IF the 4106 is what you want and is a good value and quality conversion.
Just a bit more thought on the Eagle. None of the photos are in areas that would show us the real rust condition. If you want to shoot some photos of some of the exposed frame (especially the wheel wells and around the front and rear suspension) and detailed photos of the damaged area, some of us would be glad to offer “long distance" advice.
I need to emphasize the importance of documenting the damaged area with both words and photos. Most of us have seen some really horrible cases and we all jump to the conclusion that this bus falls into that category. However, the photos suggest a pretty nice bus and maybe some of us have jumped too quickly to the horror pictures we have burned into our brain.
The three mostly costly areas of an Eagle are the rust issues, the Torsilastic units, and the engine/transmission. The engine and transmission can be checked by a good mechanic, and the Torsilastics can be easily inspected for bulging rubber at the ends, split tubes, and available adjustment. The rust can be inspected to a degree by looking at exposed areas.
The bus is good looking and if a person could buy it for 25K, and if the other components listed above are not “terminal”, it might not be a bad purchase.
Other things to consider are the quality and type of “big ticket” items in each of the conversions. That includes such things as the generator, heating system, air conditioning systems, Inverter, etc. Each of these items should have a bit of an impact on your decision. If those items are top notch in the Eagle, it makes it a better candidate.
As others have said, almost any Eagle frame can be repaired to at least a like-new condition. It just takes skill, effort, and significant dollars if you have to have someone do the work.
In one of your replies you mention resale as if you might consider it (or any bus) as an investment. Don’t fall into that trap! There are very few folks who make a profit on their bus. That is not why we buy/build them.
Remember that the 4106 bus you are thinking about could have some “near terminal” issues as well.
Just wanted to present a balanced reply.
Jim |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 11:36 pm: | |
Mike -
You sound like a well seasoned busnut to me! I hadn't taken the
time to read that you had a 4104 previously. After seeing that
bus and it's interior, well...... very nice indeed! Comfy!
Regardless what you replace it with, have a qualified mechanic
at a decent bus garage give it a complete inspection. All these
buses have been used to the max by the commercial companies,
until the repairs began to eat into the profit margin. Parts are
only going to last so long.... mechanical or human... Then, it's
payback time... I'm sure you don't want to pay for years of
past hard service....or poor preventive maintenance.
The '06 is an easy to maneuver bus, although it's turning radius
isn't much different than a 40' coach. You do have the benefit of
it being shorter, making broken "U" turns a bit easier. And being
lighter can save a bundle in fuel. If my wife hadn't felt so
claustrophobic in the ones we looked at, I would be an owner
of one now, instead of building this MC9....
Now.... building one... I trust you're not in a hurry? I personally
planned on a six month time frame, start to finish.
HEY.. I can hear that hysterical laughter out there! Cut it out.
It's been almost two years, and I have a long way to go. Other
things in life have their way of getting in the way of great plans...
From health problems, to hurricanes, there's always something
attributed to "Murphy's Law", that manages to keep the project
from moving ahead. If you can locate a rig that's finished, and it's
what you can love, then go for it. It's 1,000,000 times easier on
both pocket and mental health. Trust me.
I was practically talked into an MC9 by a friend that's yet to even
drive a bus. But he did his homework, and was fairly correct.
The MC9 is about the easiest to convert, from the inside design
perspective. It's fairly square, big enough to work with, no wheel
wells to contend with, and -all- parts are readily available. They're
also the least expensive bus to buy, since they are as plentiful as roaches.
I wish you great luck with whatever you do! But you can remove
most of the dependance on "luck", by having it inspected by a
reputable bus garage prior to buying it.
Do not make the same mistake as most of us have.
Cheers! |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 5:45 am: | |
"I personally planned on a six month time frame, start to finish."
That's way SLOW ,
some gent on the MAC board claimed a "full Conversion" in a week or so!
Still laughing,
FAST FRED |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 8:00 am: | |
A couple lawn chairs, an ice cooler, a bucket to defecate in, and yer done!
(Hell, that ain't even a week) |
Mike Jackson (Mike4104tx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 8:03 am: | |
Jim,
The pastor of our church told me a while back the difference between a “smart man” and a “wise man”. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from other peoples mistakes. Since I really don’t know any Eagle “guru’s” in our area, I have to rely on the general consensus in the busnut community. I don’t mean to say that I would make a major decision based solely on what I read on an internet bulletin board, but if 90 percent of the busnuts say it’s a bad idea; then I probably won’t go to the next step, which would be getting a mechanic to look it over.
The damage I saw on it was located behind the drivers’ side front tire. The bottom frame tube is broke. It appears to be very rusty. It was repaired once before by welding a triangle shaped piece of metal into the outer corner. It worked for a while and then broke again. I noticed rust in the fuel door. I will take some more detailed pictures next week. I thought the motor was a 6v92, but he said something about the engine runs a little warm when you run the bus air, because the cooling system was under rated. This led me to believe that maybe they put an 8v92 in it, but didn’t upgrade the cooling system. It has a jake brake as well. I think the engine and transmission have been rebuilt in the last 50k miles. He said the Torsilastics are in good condition. The genset is a Powertech 10k or 12k. It works great. It has three zones cooling and each works off its own thermostat. The three A/C’s are split units and the condensers are mounted in one of the storage bays. One of the A/C’s has an issue with the condenser. My original thoughts on the Eagle were to repair the frame and use it a few years and then stretch it to 45 foot and replace the entire bad frame.
I hope to look the 4106 over carefully soon.
Thanks for your reply,
Mike |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 8:38 am: | |
Mike -
After reading your last post regarding the previous attempt to
repair that area of rust, the overheating problem, and the
various other migrain inducing scenarios with that wreck...
The only other picture you should have, is the one with
you walking away from that POS.
Do yourself a favor, and fuggedaboudit. It ain't worth the hassle! |
H3-40
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 8:50 am: | |
I would have to agree with Mc9 John. Too many issues to deal with! Take your time and look for a coach that is in better condition mechanically and that includes the chassis! There are too many of them out there for a decent price!
Don't always judge a book by it's cover!
Ace |
Arthur J Griffith
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 9:07 pm: | |
Eagles are a great bus for conversion. But do not buy anything older than a 89. In 89 they
started using COR-TEN steel for all of the frame
construction. I totally stripped an 89 down to the frame and found no rust in the frame. The wheel U channel surrounds and the plate work
around them are not Cor-ten and may have a little rust. Easy and cheap to fix. Boy was I
happy. I have gone on to re skin my 89 and can't
wait to finish her up and get it back on the road.LOVE MY EAGLE.
ARTHUR |
Phil Hendrix
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 1:56 pm: | |
Hi Mike,
The guys haven given you some good advice about the potential problems you can find on an Eagle. Sounds like you are already fimilar with the issues also. I wish I had found this pool of wisdom 4 1/2 years ago prior to the purchase of my 1987 model 15, it would have saved me alot of headaches and $$$. Too this date I have replaced approx. 75% of the frame as I have stretched mine to 45'. That being said, when I am done I will feel comfortable building the rest of the conversion. Nevertheless, if you think there are serious rust issues, don't buy it unless the price reflects your willingness to fix the problems. As Jim mentioned, if it can be bought cheap enough, then to the right person it might be a deal.
I would agree with Arthur, the Eagle bus is a wonderful choice for a conversion and I can't wait to get mine on the road. (Arthur, are you redoing the silver siding?)
(Jim, did you get the rear-end fixed?) |
Pat Bartlett (Muddog16)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 4:09 pm: | |
Mike buying a bus to convert to make money is probably not a good investment! Unless you have many skills and are able of doing the things required. This is a very time consuming project, these buses have 100's of thousands of miles on them, they have aged, wintered, and probably have been abused, by the company who owned and operated them! The hope of ever recovering most of your investment is nothing but an unrealistic plan. In the heat of the moment the cheapest price usually ends up costing the most before its over! |
Mike Jackson (Mike4104tx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 4:40 pm: | |
Pat,
I agree with you and the other folks regarding this Eagle.
Just for the record, I wasn't wanting to fix it and sell it. I was just comparing the value's of other Eagles to this one. If my total investment was going to be $50k and it was comparable to some other Eagles that are selling for $80k on up. Then the money invested in this one would not be in vain.
Thanks for your reply,
Mike |
Mike Jackson (Mike4104tx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 5:38 pm: | |
John MC9,
BTW - I didn't do the conversion on the 4104. I purchased it like that. While I did like the lay out on it, I did not like all the carpet on the walls and ceiling. It has a nice sized bathroom, which I really like. The bedroom was very quiet and VERY comfortable to sleep in. When I slept in there I would loose track of time.
My contribution to that conversion was, paying for the motor & the blower to be rebuilt, replacing four of the tires, replacing the front brakes & bearings, getting the lights working, replacing the water pump, and repairing one of the radius rod mounting points. I also learned my lesson about generators: not to waste my time with older cheaper gensets. It's a lot better to get a new generator, properly mount it, and make sure the fuel line is properly installed.
I really liked that old bus. It had a lot of character. The exhaust on it was loud. When I would pull into my brothers neighborhood he would hear me coming down the street and tell his wife.. " I hear a detroit diesel"... The gentleman that purchased my old 4104 has put a quiet muffler on it. He said it purrs like a kitten.
One of the best things about the 4104, in my opinion, is that it has a simple design. The motor/transmission combo has passed the test of time, Rock solid, yet simple. The body was built very solid. The main problem I had with it was the lack of power. I wouldn't have known that it really lacked power, but I drove my brothers MC-5 with the 8v71 and I saw the difference.
Mike |
arthurg
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:22 pm: | |
PHIL:
Yes I have just finished skinning my Eagle with
the mirror finish siding. Will start this week
on the new trim and lighting. We (wife & I) have
done a lot of up-dating in the re-design. We will
be at the Bussin 2006 with pictures to share. Will be in a small C-Class. Stop buy. (anyone)
LOVE MY EAGLE
ARTHUR |
|